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Thread: New qualification and Nationals Division Placement rules....

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by NCSkier View Post
    I'm still of the opinion I should have a choice, based on my season rankings which division I should be placed in. Give me the option to race in which division(if applicable) at the time of registration and do not allow any changes after that. Last years results are just that. Changing the criteria based on previous handicaps doesn't correctly place one in the correct division. There are too many factors in play here, Course terrain, course conditions, course set, pacesetters accuracy/consistency, etc. Trying to compensate at the Nationals for the many variables at resorts, courses etc that lead to lower handicaps needs some rethinking Why doesn't Nastar make the Nationals courses more representative of the resorts courses. IE Shorter, flatter, straighter. Wouldn't that more accurately correlate to handicaps???
    I think that we are in the same ballpark on this issue. For example,

    If I qualify during the season as Platinum, my prior year Nationals results have me in Gold. I should have the option to stay in Gold or step up to Platinum at the time of registration.

    If I qualify as Silver during the season, but prior year Nationals results put me in Gold (due to course/pacesetter situations), I should have the option to stay in Silver or step up to Gold at the time of registration.

    This would allow the individual racers to determine if they want the additional difficulty of the higher level courses, but would still keep them in an appropriate category based on their results.

    It is so difficult to account for differences between courses at a particular Nationals event. Last year the Platinum course, while maybe slightly steeper, was much easier to ski due to snow conditions and I was able to get a decent handicap and finish mid pack in my division. Several folks that I race with in the Gold division in prior years were on the Gold course which rutted up and fell apart resulting in higher handicaps. Cary usually beats me when we go head to head but I had a better handicap due to course differences.

    In my case, if I had the options described above, I could have chosen to go Platinum if I wanted the challenge (I am sure the other Platinum racers would not be frightened by my presence) or I could stay in Gold which better fits my competitive level (they would also not be frightened by my presence since several of the Gold racers beat me on a regular basis).

    Anyway....lets see what develops at USSA on this issue......

  2. #12
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    You put it better than I did, Steve Hopefully Nastar/USSA will take our suggestions into consideration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monpick View Post
    I think that we are in the same ballpark on this issue. For example, If I qualify during the season as Platinum, my prior year Nationals results have me in Gold. I should have the option to stay in Gold or step up to Platinum at the time of registration. If I qualify as Silver during the season, but prior year Nationals results put me in Gold (due to course/pacesetter situations), I should have the option to stay in Silver or step up to Gold at the time of registration. This would allow the individual racers to determine if they want the additional difficulty of the higher level courses, but would still keep them in an appropriate category based on their results. You put it better than I did, Steve. Hopefully Nastar/USSA will consider our suggwstions It is so difficult to account for differences between courses at a particular Nationals event. Last year the Platinum course, while maybe slightly steeper, was much easier to ski due to snow conditions and I was able to get a decent handicap and finish mid pack in my division. Several folks that I race with in the Gold division in prior years were on the Gold course which rutted up and fell apart resulting in higher handicaps. Cary usually beats me when we go head to head but I had a better handicap due to course differences. In my case, if I had the options described above, I could have chosen to go Platinum if I wanted the challenge (I am sure the other Platinum racers would not be frightened by my presence) or I could stay in Gold which better fits my competitive level (they would also not be frightened by my presence since several of the Gold racers beat me on a regular basis). Anyway....lets see what develops at USSA on this issue......

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NCSkier View Post
    You put it better than I did, Steve Hopefully Nastar/USSA will take our suggestions into consideration.
    I just got a note back from Nastar. In my personal example (Gold per 2017 nationals and hopefully Platinum in 2018 season performance) I would have a choice to either stay in Gold or move to Platinum for 2018 Nationals. If my 2018 season performance happened to be Silver I don't know if this option still exists (option to choose either Silver or Gold). 2017 Nationals (Gold) may be the trump card in that case.....

    Oh well....time to go out in the 90 degree/90% humidity and dream of snow.....

  4. #14
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    Thanks for your comments. Our goal is to make the system more fair for all racers and to reward racers that participated in the Nationals last season.It would be great if all NASTAR courses were equal, but they are not. Many racers have some “creep” in their handicap during the season. People that race often will catch the pacesetter on a bad day or the course will get faster resulting in lower handicaps. So, a racer that is ranked in the gold division may only be able to earn a silver medal handicaps at the Nationals. The new system would allow those people to race in the silver division but it will also provide them with the option to register for the gold or platinum division. We will need to be diligent about informing people. We will hear from people saying, “why is this guy in the silver division when he/she is ranked in the gold division.” The answer is, these people qualified via their results from the 2017 NASTAR National Championships. The other challenge we will face will be placing people in divisions when they change age groups. Racers that competed in the National last spring will be placed in their division based on their final handicap from the Nationals last year but within their 2017-18 age group.We understand the system is not perfect, and we don't want to penalize the most active NASTAR racers by placing them in a division that is above their ability. For those that want to race in a more competitive division, they can.

  5. #15
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    Thanks Nastar for the racer option "Our goal is to make the system more fair for all racers and to reward racers that participated in the Nationals last season" Not sure this is fair to racers that do not get pushed down a division or a reward for those that do There are too many variables in play and trying to use/manipulate/correlate handicaps to nationals ability levels I don't think has accomplished anything As you said its not a perfect system, not sure this has made it any more/less fair
    Quote Originally Posted by NASTAR HQ View Post
    Thanks for your comments. Our goal is to make the system more fair for all racers and to reward racers that participated in the Nationals last season.It would be great if all NASTAR courses were equal, but they are not. Many racers have some “creep” in their handicap during the season. People that race often will catch the pacesetter on a bad day or the course will get faster resulting in lower handicaps. So, a racer that is ranked in the gold division may only be able to earn a silver medal handicaps at the Nationals. The new system would allow those people to race in the silver division but it will also provide them with the option to register for the gold or platinum division. We will need to be diligent about informing people. We will hear from people saying, “why is this guy in the silver division when he/she is ranked in the gold division.” The answer is, these people qualified via their results from the 2017 NASTAR National Championships. The other challenge we will face will be placing people in divisions when they change age groups. Racers that competed in the National last spring will be placed in their division based on their final handicap from the Nationals last year but within their 2017-18 age group.We understand the system is not perfect, and we don't want to penalize the most active NASTAR racers by placing them in a division that is above their ability. For those that want to race in a more competitive division, they can.

  6. #16
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    Here are comparison for two previous years using only Racers in Nationals

    Actual 2015-2016
    Platinum
    6
    Gold
    11
    Silver
    13
    Bronze
    4

    Projected 2016-2017 based on 2015-2016 Nationals
    Platinum
    2
    Gold
    6
    Silver
    18
    Bronze
    8


    Actual 2016-2017
    Platinum
    14
    Gold
    15
    Silver
    15
    Bronze
    2

    Projected 2017-2018 based on 2016-2017 Nationals
    Platinum
    4
    Gold
    8
    Silver
    16
    Bronze
    18

    Platinum racers moving to silver as well as gold racers moving to bronze
    Last edited by NCSkier; 07-13-2017 at 11:06 PM.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by NCSkier View Post
    Here are comparison for two previous years using only Racers in Nationals Actual 2015-2016 Platinum 6 Gold 11 Silver 13 Bronze 4 Projected 2016-2017 based on 2015-2016 Nationals Platinum 2 Gold 6 Silver 18 Bronze 8 Actual 2016-2017 Platinum 14 Gold 15 Silver 15 Bronze 2 Projected 2017-2018 based on 2016-2017 Nationals Platinum 4 Gold 8 Silver 16 Bronze 18 Platinum racers moving to silver as well as gold racers moving to bronze
    I was just looking at the course assignments for the 2018 Nationals.....when you reach my "advanced age" it all gets pretty simple. It doesn't matter if I am Silver, Gold or Platinum.....all my runs will be on Killy's run.... How about an option to go up in division and down in age group? :) I guess that is the incentive to win my division and get to ski on the Big Boy hill....

  8. #18
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    Yeah, Snowmass had the same deal at their venue, luck of the draw with terrain/course a particular resort will provide for racing. Bring back Lower Hughes at Winter Park!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Monpick View Post
    I was just looking at the course assignments for the 2018 Nationals.....when you reach my "advanced age" it all gets pretty simple. It doesn't matter if I am Silver, Gold or Platinum.....all my runs will be on Killy's run.... How about an option to go up in division and down in age group? :) I guess that is the incentive to win my division and get to ski on the Big Boy hill....

  9. #19
    Administrator patmoore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCSkier View Post
    Yeah, Snowmass had the same deal at their venue, luck of the draw with terrain/course a particular resort will provide for racing. Bring back Lower Hughes at Winter Park!!!
    For those who missed Winter Park, here's a shot of Lower Hughes - Skier's Left. It had a pronounced sideways tilt that you can see in the photo. Racing it on a snowboard was fun but challenging.

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  10. #20
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    I remember that. I raced on that course. I can honestly say that was the most challenging Nationals course I've raced on but it was also the most fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by patmoore View Post
    For those who missed Winter Park, here's a shot of Lower Hughes - Skier's Left. It had a pronounced sideways tilt that you can see in the photo. Racing it on a snowboard was fun but challenging.

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