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Thread: At what point?

  1. #1
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    At what point?

    At what point should a pacesetter re paceset a course?

    There is a mountain I was looking at, and the pacesetter (who sets almost ever Nastar day) is set to have a 15 HC.

    Everyday he sets, he skis HCs around 10 (on the course he set at a 15 HC). This seems a little off to me.
    He has even run a 6, a 8, and a 9 on different days (again, when he was the setter).


    Just wondering at what point, should he take his fastest run and put that in with a 15 HC?
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  2. #2
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    Ok...It just seems funny.... A pacesetter constantly sets a course and lowers his handicap on it. Seems like maybe his pacesetting handicap should be lowered.

    It just doesn't seem right to have a guy who has a state handicap of 8 and a national around 10 running with a 15...But idk, im just a kid :(
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  3. #3
    Administrator JTBear's Avatar
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    Update:Pacesetters can race NASTAR on a day they set pace!

    Well everyone:

    I was wrong on this one!! I spoke to Bill Madsen and was informed that NASTAR HQ encourages the Pacesetters to jump into the race course on given days, (after they set pace) to validate their pacesetting times.

    You learn something new everyday!! :wink:

    Now if the Pacesetter beats his/her handicap by more than 2 Hdcp pts, then they are supposed to stop the race, and establish a new race at that point. But, the folks who had ran against the slower pace, should still be scored in that first race. All others (after the re-pace determination) would be racing in the second race.

    This is why you'll sometimes see a NASTAR race result at a resort and then on the very same day you'll see a second race usually titled: NASTAR2.

    Confused.......... I hope not?
    :roll: :?
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  4. #4
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    Pacesetter handicap blues, (are they right?)

    I'm trying to qualify this weekend for the nationals at Mt. Sunapee, NH in the 55-59 male expert division. In looking over the NASTAR daily race results there, I've observed the race results with the normal Sunday pacesetter, carrying a 19 handicap rating has also been racing at other local ski resorts this season and has cut a couple of 11+ handicaps, a couple of 13's and a couple of 15's. In fact, his national "professional" handicap rating is 13.977 :roll:

    It seems that to us mortal skiers trying to improve and eke out an invite to the Nationals this is a serious hurdle to overcome, in that He's presently skiing about 5 handicap points better than his "official" handicap.

    Is there a policy to revise a Pacesetter's daily posted handicap downward based on his documented "improving" performance during the season :?:
    PEC32....Early & high sure beats late & low!

  5. #5
    Administrator patmoore's Avatar
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    Good luck at Sunapee

    I just looked at Sunapee because I'm also in the Men 55-59 Expert category. I was surprised to see myself ranked number 2 with a 52 handicap. That handicap was the result of riding a snowboard on a sheet of ice (what we Easterners call "packed powder"). I'm not sure why a snowboard run factors into the Expert Ski rankings but that may be just a programming hiccup. If you go to Sunapee this weekend you'll have no difficulty overtaking me for the number 2 spot. You're already number 3 at Okemo. Since I'm number 1 at yet another resort (Taos) doesn't that move you up as far as Okemo's selection goes? I can't qualify from three different mountains. I think that frees up spots for others so I think you should be in pretty good shape.

    Am I interpreting this correctly?

    Different issue: If someone is sitting in 4th place and one of the folks above him opts not to attend, does he get the invitation? How would he know unless the one not attending expressly said he wasn't attending.
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  6. #6
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    Yep, I'm in good shape, but

    Thanks for your input, Pat. You're right...I'm in pretty good shape to make it. What I am most concerned about is that all the racers skiing at Sunapee have an approx 5 handicap disadvantage compared to their average racing handicaps acheived at other resorts. At Sunapee alone, when racing for spot # 1,2 or 3 the disadvantage disappears since all racers competing against this pacesetter have the same disadvantage. It just raises your aveare racing handicap for the year, and eventually, your national ranking. Ah, yes east cost packed powder. Can't wait to visit Steamboat in early March :D By the way, how was Taos??
    PEC32....Early & high sure beats late & low!

  7. #7
    Administrator patmoore's Avatar
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    Taos

    Taos was way up there - literally! The altitude affected about 80% of the 75 club members who went on the trip. I didn't get acclimated until the last day.

    I signed up for lessons and asked for gate training. We never got near a race course and spent the entire week in the glades and bumps. I learned a lot but I really wanted training in the gates. Our club did arrange for a private NASTAR race on Thursday. I got to meet Lil-feet and raced against her head-to-head. That was fun.

    There's not much to do other than skiing in Taos Ski Valley itself. The town of Taos is about 20 miles away. My wife did a two-mile uphill trek on her cross-country skis on a trail called Rubezal, had lunch, and cruised back down. She has better endurance than I do. I couldn't have made it a quarter of the way without getting exhausted.

    We had a LOT of snow while out there. On Friday, the visibility was so bad, they had to shut down the Extreme Freestyle competition and an NCAA race.

    The skiing is wonderful and I'm sure I'd have gotten used to the alititude with a little more time.

    Good luck at Sunapee! I'll probably be at the NASTAR course at Okemo on Sunday if you're in the area.

    Pat
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  8. #8
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    Re: At what point?

    Originally posted by skidude
    At what point should a pacesetter re paceset a course?
    There is a mountain I was looking at, and the pacesetter (who sets almost ever Nastar day) is set to have a 15 HC.
    Everyday he sets, he skis HCs around 10 (on the course he set at a 15 HC).  This seems a little off to me.
    He has even run a 6, a 8, and a 9 on different days (again, when he was the setter).
    Just wondering at what point, should he take his fastest run and put that in with a 15 HC?
    The course your talking about always speeds up, then breaks down later in the day as the race team hits it. The pacesetter also jumps on the course later in his speed suit. Here's a pretty typical four run progression:

    run 1 time 30.77 HC=18.57      
       run 2 time 30.43 HC=17.26      
        run 3  time 30.21 HC=16.42      
        run 4  time 30.57 HC=17.80  

    It seems like as soon as I hit that 16 HC about 2 hours into the day, he'll jump on the course in his speed suit and smoke my time. Sorry, Skidude, but I think that's fun. And someday I'll finally beat him straight up.
     
    Montage does a terrific job, btw. You can ALWAYS count on them having a race on Saturdays and Sundays, no matter the weather. They are even testing out Friday races to see if they get turnout. And when you cross the finish, they announce your time, medal, and how much faster you need for the next medal. How would they do that if they kept changing the par time? Pretty cool for a ski area that nobody ever heard of, let alone skis at. There were maybe 150 people on the mountain today and only about a dozen raced. And they kept the NASTAR course open for five hours, as usual.
    I've raced NASTAR since the early 80's and have never skied at a place where they put more effort into race days. They put up all the banners during near-blizzard conditions with five people showing up. When there are kids racing, one of the J4/5 coaches shows up to recruit for the USSA program. And when real little one's race, Coach Bob SkiPants is usually there to give tips.

  9. #9
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    And, Skidude:

    Check out Thursday night's corporate race. Different pacesetter set the par time, then he took a second run late in the group. He's a 10 HCer and skied .84 seconds faster than his pace time for a 6.98 HC.

    Skiing is an outdoor sport.

  10. #10
    Administrator JTBear's Avatar
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    Re: Good luck at Sunapee

    Originally posted by patmoore
    Different issue:  If someone is sitting in 4th place and one of the folks above him opts not to attend, does he get the invitation? How would he know unless the one not attending expressly said he wasn't attending.
    (My comments are intended to address skiing only)

    Officially, the NASTAR database will determine the top 3 qualifiers in both Intermediate and Expert divisions. If one of the top 3 qualifiers is also qualified at another resort, then NASTAR will move down the list and issue an invite to the 4th place racer.

    A little known, but very easy way to get an invite Nationals is to simply ask. :? NASTAR has, and does provide "discretionary" invites. This example of a skier in 4th place, who's actively participating in the qualifying process can certainly petition and get an invite. :D

    I hope this helps. If anyone has a question on this process, shoot me a PM. I would be happy to help out!!

    Mike :wink:
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