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Thread: New Junior Age Categories

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclose8 View Post
    I'm just saying your "Dollars spent on skiing" criteria for Nastar participation is ridiculous. ........there are also people that spend tons and are still slow.
    OTC-bro...I'm not sure you have thought this out.........I have to agree w/J...using your criteria of money spent and USSA affiliated, I would have to be excluded, but I fall into the spends money/shows little in the way of solid results category.....so I guess you would let me go because I have little to no chance of winning in the over 35 gold and platinum categories I have run 4 of my 6 trips to Nat's.

    .what should happen is they should be properly bracketed and obvious villains ( ski in bronze category and run platinum on day 2 and in finals) should be quietly addressed directly by NASTAR.
    Last edited by cinciracer; 06-28-2012 at 12:34 AM.

  2. #22
    The new classifications makes sense to me. Everyone racing at the same age level regardless of the organization.

    As for the ongoing debate about who should be allowed at Nationals my take is anyone willing to pay the $$$ and go should be allowed regardless of their background or ability.

    The amount of money spent on racing does not always translate into someone being more accomplshed. Many families spend alot of money on their kids because they want them to become better skiers, and race training can help in that pursuit. It does not always lead to those children being great racers. In fact a good percentage of most Jr. Ski teams are made up of kids who are average in ability, and probably will never stand on top of the podium at Nationals in a Platinum catagory. It usually does help them to become more technically sound though. That helps them to become better skiers, and faster in a race course, than those kids that do not have the training. To ban them from attending Nationals just because they spent some money and devoted time to improvement makes no sense at all.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by offthecouch View Post
    So J-bro, not to disrupte your gloating but I do need to give you some bad news. I suspect your kids are young so you have not experienced this yet but USSA racing in Marquette is no cheaper than the rest of the country. This bothered me because I know that most of our regional fees go towards the US ski team in the form of a head tax. So why were the Marquette kids allowed to race without supporting the US ski team like the rest of us? Turns out they're not. Region 2 USSA fees are $285. Then for proper USSA training you need to join a club...GLSA (Marquette's Great Lakes Ski Academy) where fees range from $530 -$680 plus $60 per race weekend for coaching support at races. And then every kid pays the for their USSA license of $125. That all adds up to well over $1,000.
    So even those up in God's country have to pay dearly to race.
    OTC I do need to clearify a few things about costs. A USSA competitors license for U14 and under is $80.00 per year not $125.00. For 14 and over Non-scored it is $100.00. For any scored athlete that wants FIS points it is $150.00 for 12 and over. It would be safe to say that a small percentage of those scored level kids go to Nastar Nationals. For the most part the USSA kids are focused on the JR Championships and FIS level races, not going to Nastar Nationals. Out of the 90 boys and girls that qualified for the National J4 JR Championships out of Central Division this past year very few, if any, went to Nastar Nationals. Why should those 120 or so boys and girls who did not make the J4 Championship Team be excluded from Nastar if they want to race?

    In addition last year the yearly Region 2 fees were $250.00 for a 1 to 3 race option, and $285.00 for the full 6 race option. If you were a J5 or J6, now U12 and U10, you did not have to pay that fee and could race for $30.00 per weekend. Some of these kids do go to Nationals to help prepare them for the future when they will try to make the Championship Team which starts at the U14 level. For some Nastar Nationals is a stepping stone to bigger event racing.

    Also in order to be allowed to race a USSA event the only criteria is you need to be represented by a coach at each race, not required to be on a team. Many teams, including the one I coach for, offer this service for $50.00 per weekend. Many WIJARA kids use this service if their mountain or team does not offer coaching at USSA races. There are many WIJARA teams that have fees in the $300.00 range per year, which includes the $30.00 yearly WIJARA fee. Yes it does cost more than taking a few runs in a Nastar course a few times per year, but anyone can get experiance spending less than $1,000.

    My point echo's J Close, why should someone be excluded just because they spend some money and devote time to improve on their skills? If you want to spend the time and money to go then you should be allowed to go regardless.

  4. #24
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    HGA1976,Have you ever heard the expression " You can't see the forest for the trees" ?
    While you split hairs over the details I am going back to my original question of, where is Nastar going if the Grand prize at their National competition appeals more to a USSA racer than a recreational racer. Just think, if Nastar is not careful and takes attention away from their core market, the true recreational racer, some other company may come along and think they can do the 'handicapped against a US ski team member' race, better.
    Oh wait....

  5. #25
    OTC,

    What is your definition of a "true recreational racer"?

  6. #26
    OTC,
    Here we go again with the debate about the recreational racers and who is and who isn’t. This tread was initially about the new age classes and you took it in a direction that discussed USSA racers which I do know something about. Once actual numbers started being tossed around I felt compelled to clarify some of the facts, and state my opinion that anyone should be eligible to go if they want. Nothing else.
    Since you insinuated that I cannot see the forest through the trees I will discuss your point that the Grand Prize at the National Championships appeals more to a USSA racer than a recreational racer, and as you have stated before that this is changing Nastar. What do you base that position on? I am sorry but once again I will use some facts to illustrate that I do not think this is the case. This year the Central Division Region 2 had a total of 180 racers paying dues to race in all age classes. Out of all those boys and girls 0 boys and 2 girls attended Nationals. If I took the time to go through the numbers for the whole Central, Eastern and Western Regions I am sure the numbers would be very similar. I will admit to the fact that the Rocky Mtn Region has more that attend due to the close proximity of the event to their homes but once again not vastly different. Out of the 40 boys that represented the Rocky region at the J4 Championships, 4 attended Nationals. That is 6 kids out of 220. If we went back and looked at numbers prior to the Grand Prize trip being offered I would bet the numbers would be very similar once again. If the Grand prize trip was such a big appeal for the USSA group why aren’t more going to Nationals? If you are trying to say that the Grand Prize trip attracts more USSA/accomplished racers, and because of this less of your so called “recreational racers” are not going, I do not by it. I do tend to use facts to formulate my opinions, and I view the facts as trees. When you put them all together they paint a picture and that picture is the forest.
    In my opinion the #1 thing that affects the spirit of Nationals is sandbagging and that has been going on for years, and has very little to do with the USSA crowd. If Nastar figured out how to effectively deal with that maybe we all would be happy.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hga1976 View Post
    This tread was initially about the new age classes and you took it in a direction that discussed USSA racers . .
    I did not change any direction. The whole purpose of the age catergory shift is to better align with USSA. Nastar says in their opening statement "In an effort to be consistent across all levels of alpine racing NASTAR is considering changing their age categories to match USSA".
    Regarding who is and who is not a recreational racer. Just read any bio of Abigail Murer (previous ROC winner) and try to tell me she is a recreational racer.

  8. #28
    OTC,

    The question asked by HQ was if we agree or disagree with the age class changes. You most certainly took this thread in the direction that USSA racers, and or, accomplished ski racers do not belong at Nationals. How does changing the age category structure have any relevance on who should be allowed to go to Nationals? Reread post # 8 in which you state “When accomplished USSA kids sign up for a recreational ski race it is a sham.” Then in #12 you made a comment about kids and others that “are beyond the ability level meant for Nastar Nationals”. Nastar is meant for all ability levels. Then in Post #24 when you state “where is Nastar going if the Grand Prize at their Nationals competition appeals more to a USSA racer than a recreational racer.” The Grand Prize has had little effect on that class of racer attending, as the numbers show. My position is that Nastar Nationals appeals to people who love to ski race regardless of their ability level. That is why there are 4 different ability classes for both male and female in which they can compete fairly against other, assuming they are actually in the right class based on their proficiency. Both accomplished and non-accomplished racers have been coming for years. It would be safe to say Nastar HQ would like more of both. Changing the age category structure will have little impact on that.

    As for Abigail she is without a doubt a very accomplished ski racer, but racers like her have been coming to Nationals for years. In fact she has been coming to Nastar Nationals for many years as well so just because she has become more proficient your stance is she should not be allowed to come. Obviously I do not agree. My take is that you want the Nationals to be comprised of racers that are “truly” Silver and Bronze racers. Nationals would not last very long under that structure. I think you do not see the forest through the trees.

    By the way you never answered the question, what is “your” definition of a true recreational racer? I did not see that in Abigail’s Bio.
    Last edited by hga1976; 08-29-2012 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Increased the font size

  9. #29
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    As I have said on here many times before, who should be racing in Nastar Nationals is an ethical issue. I feel sorry for you that you don't seem to understand the concept.

  10. #30
    Senior Member jclose8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by offthecouch View Post
    As I have said on here many times before, who should be racing in Nastar Nationals is an ethical issue.
    So ethically, in your opinion, who should be racing in Nastar Nationals?

    We do have a platinum division, right? Is there a point when a person is TOO good to be in Platinum?
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