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Thread: Handicap Ranking Proposal

  1. #1

    Handicap Ranking Proposal

    Introduce a new category: Current Handicap.

    Current handicap is a rolling average of your last three races. You still keep your best resort, state, and national scores, regardless of your rolling current handicap.

    Race pacesetting is calculated from all participants' Current Handicap. Top 10 (5? 20? 30?) seeds should be used to calculate average handicap versus average race time. Average top 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 raceers' times and calculate par time against their 5, 10, 20 or 30 average handicap, and you will get better Standard Race Rank than against single pacesetter.

    If there are not enough ranked racers present, all available pacesetters should be used to get the average pace and par time.

    NASTAR pacesetters should be used as a last resort to rank races, as the fluidity and the number of racers will eventually take over.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
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    Just trying to clarify here.........So you're saying that the par time for the race should be set, basically, by using the times of all the racers that have run the course on that particular day? ......... is that correct?
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  3. #3
    Senior Member chuckp7600's Avatar
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    I think that is what he is saying. Which might work for race leauges but for Daily Nastar it would make it awfully hard for people to collect their pins if the handicaps could not be calculated until the end of the sessions. With people signing up and skiing their runs over a 2+ hour period I don't see that going over very well with the average 1 or 2 day a year recreational nastar racer.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckp7600 View Post
    I think that is what he is saying. Which might work for race leauges but for Daily Nastar it would make it awfully hard for people to collect their pins if the handicaps could not be calculated until the end of the sessions. With people signing up and skiing their runs over a 2+ hour period I don't see that going over very well with the average 1 or 2 day a year recreational nastar racer.
    Exactly. Not saying the proposal is without merit, but when 12 year old Susie Sunshine shows up, makes her two runs at the start of the NASTAR session, then wants to go ski the rest of the day with her friends, when the course is still open for an hour and a half, what medal are you supposed to award her?
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
    Exactly. Not saying the proposal is without merit, but when 12 year old Susie Sunshine shows up, makes her two runs at the start of the NASTAR session, then wants to go ski the rest of the day with her friends, when the course is still open for an hour and a half, what medal are you supposed to award her?
    I am sure NASTAR can come up with an acceptable way of giving medals after race, and that shouldn't be a reason for not fixing a broken ranking system.

    Is there any other sport or game that awards medals while the race (or game) is still on?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adi View Post
    I am sure NASTAR can come up with an acceptable way of giving medals after race, and that shouldn't be a reason for not fixing a broken ranking system.
    It's your proposal, you should come up with the reasonable way of awarding the medals.......

    ........and who says the system is broken? I agree that it could use some tweaks in the pacesetter area, but otherwise the system works fine.

    I personally think Great Banana's idea of averaging three years of pacesetter trials results is best - it is do-able without any added work (other than some computuaions by the coputer system, averages inconsistent results over a number of years, and doens't mess with the current set-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Adi View Post
    Is there any other sport or game that awards medals while the race (or game) is still on?
    For that particular racer (in this case, Susie Sunshine), the game (race) is over for them when they've made their last run - they're not racing the rest of the field, they're racing the par time....... and they'd like to get their medal.

    Using your analogy, Is there any other sport that promises the competitor a result when you finish, then says wait until we decide the rules of that day's game before we can tell you how you did?

    Baseball - you've scored 12 runs.... we'll tell you later tonight if that was enough to win
    Basketball - you've scored 86 points... hold on for an hour and we'll let you know if that's enough to win today
    Track - you ran that mile in 6:25, but you're going to have to wait two hours before we can tell you how you did

    etc, etc
    Last edited by Racer X; 01-30-2012 at 08:10 PM.
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  7. #7
    Senior Member chuckp7600's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adi View Post
    I am sure NASTAR can come up with an acceptable way of giving medals after race, and that shouldn't be a reason for not fixing a broken ranking system.

    Is there any other sport or game that awards medals while the race (or game) is still on?
    The thing to remeber is that you, I and pretty much anyone on this forum is not a "typical" nastar racer. The typical racer races once or twice because it looks like fun, they get a neat little pin to show their friends. Chances are good that they don't know or care about how pace setting works, so asking them to come back a few hours later to find out how they did is probabally not going to fly. (by typical I mean that there have been over 32000 people who have raced nastar this year - of those around 2000 have actually raced 5 times or more)

    I also agree that some multiyear pacesetter averaging would smooth things out. I'd also add some way to deal with the cases of pacesetters who race in races that they paceset and have large handicap differences between their pace and race.
    Last edited by chuckp7600; 01-30-2012 at 08:10 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
    It's your proposal, you should come up with the reasonable way of awarding the medals.......

    ........and who says the system is broken? I agree that it could use some tweaks in the pacesetter area, but otherwise the system works fine.

    I personally think Great Banana's idea of averaging three years of pacesetter trials results is best - it is do-able without any added work (other than some computuaions by the coputer system, averages inconsistent results over a number of years, and doens't mess with the current set-up



    For that particular racer (in this case, Susie Sunshine), the game (race) is over for them when they've made their last run - they're not racing the rest of the field, they're racing the par time....... and they'd like to get their medal.

    Using your analogy, Is there any other sport that promises the competitor a result when you finish, then says wait until we decide the rules of that day's game before we can tell you how you did?

    Baseball - you've scored 12 runs.... we'll tell you later tonight if that was enough to win
    Basketball - you've scored 86 points... hold on for an hour and we'll let you know if that's enough to win today
    Track - you ran that mile in 6:25, but you're going to have to wait two hours before we can tell you how you did

    etc, etc
    Giving medals from 2:30 to 4 PM after a race looks fine to me, but that is not the topic of this proposal.

    Every other sport and game you mentioned works exactly like that: If you scored so many points by the end of the game, surely you know if it was enough to win.

  9. #9
    ..........
    Last edited by Adi; 02-05-2012 at 01:56 PM.

  10. #10
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    I agree with the arguments that using a pacesetter and awarding medals after each race is a good way to run the Nastar races. I also understand and have thought about how the system or results can be more consistent. In my case, I do not have any suggestions that would improve the system. However, Nastar data is available. I'd like to see some results. If the original poster could demonstrate how the system should work, not for individual race results, but perhaps for ranking purposes, then "show me the money".

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