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Thread: Great Night at Keystone

  1. #21
    Administrator JTBear's Avatar
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    I spoke with Billy Madsen about this issue. He and Jonesy talked and both agree that Adam is just really fast on the flats!! So, yes as Prudence says (sorry dude, just could pass it up) it would make sense that Jonesy look to repace Adam and all the Keystone guys on their hill.

    If you research Adam's race record, you'll see he does not fare so well in the Town Series at Beaver Creek (Jan 23 & 30) when racing against all of the fast kids. (Jonesy raced too, thus supporting my assertion)

    This drives back to the simple point, the steeper the hill and more technical the course, the more separation we see between the Elite Racers and everyone else on skis.......... Easier and more gentle NASTAR hills will produce lower overall results.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTBear View Post
    ....... So, yes as Prudence says (sorry dude, just could pass it up) ............


    I love it,,,,,darn that Prudence!


    Quote Originally Posted by JTBear View Post
    This drives back to the simple point, the steeper the hill and more technical the course, the more separation we see between the Elite Racers and everyone else on skis.......... Easier and more gentle NASTAR hills will produce lower overall results.


    Agree completely, and the results everywhere (see the results from today's UP Open for more confirmation of this) continue to prove that point.
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  3. #23
    A solution in this case of special races like these should be simple. All of the racers are already rated, and their aggregate handicaps and results should be used to pace the race, not only the best racer's.

    In my opinion. it should be used in all NASTAR races.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JTBear View Post
    I spoke with Billy Madsen about this issue. He and Jonesy talked and both agree that Adam is just really fast on the flats!! So, yes as Prudence says (sorry dude, just could pass it up) it would make sense that Jonesy look to repace Adam and all the Keystone guys on their hill.

    If you research Adam's race record, you'll see he does not fare so well in the Town Series at Beaver Creek (Jan 23 & 30) when racing against all of the fast kids. (Jonesy raced too, thus supporting my assertion)

    This drives back to the simple point, the steeper the hill and more technical the course, the more separation we see between the Elite Racers and everyone else on skis.......... Easier and more gentle NASTAR hills will produce lower overall results.
    So who would you pace against who? Jonsey against Adam, or Adam against Jonsey? Do you prefer steep against flats, or flats against steep?

    If aggregate rating is used, you don't care -- sometimes a faster flats skier wins, another time a more steeps skier wins.

    Even if Jonsey re-pace Adam, do we really know ho re-paced who: Jonsey re-paced Adam, or Adam re-paced Jonsey. Who is slower, and who is faster?

    Aggregate, and you are safe.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
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    Since it is Adam who's handicap you are questioning, then you re-paceset him using a known quantity (Jonesy - if you could bring in AJ, even better, but unealistic and unnecesary considering Jonesy runs at Keystone) to be the pacesetter, and Adam runs against him - this will give a more accurate reflection of Adam's true handicap on his home hill, and will solve much of the problem you brought up previously.

    Hey, this is my 1000th post! Yay!
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  6. #26
    But it is not my call to question anybody's handicap.

    I am pointing to a fault in calculating handicaps with the current system.

    Imagine Ms. Vonn finishing 7 seconds behind Ms. Reisch, due to a mistake she made on the course. She fell behind about 7 seconds, and 156 skiers finished better than her.

    Are all of them entitled to handicaps of -722.00, since she was the one with 0.00? Of course not. The aggregate is always used there, and it doesn't reward all other skiers for a poor performance of a single chosen skier.
    Last edited by Adi; 02-12-2012 at 01:56 AM.

  7. #27
    Now it is even worse.

    Adam is ranked as a 13 pacesetter handicap.
    Where did this come from?

    Is NASTAR going to recalculate all races based on this new, came from who knows where handicap?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfman99 View Post
    I know Adi and he could be the pacesetter there. Fast guy.
    Flat hill 15hdcp+ pacesetters should be re-paced on their home hill by a certified pacesetter regardless of their results at trials. This gives the customer a more realistic hdcp versus the pacesetter and national pace hdcp on that flat hill. Who cares that a flat hill shaves the gap between the pro and the tourist (it is what it is). It should still come down to how well you do on that hill versus the pro. One is more likely to accept the fact of getting crushed on a more challenging slope.
    I would think only a few of the fastest recreational racers would have any chance of even staying in the same zip code of a Jonesy on a flat hill anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by oldgold76 View Post
    Some excellent points, wolfman. This is a recreational racing organization, afterall, and the more people who feel they are at least somewhat competitive the more people have fun. It's hard to imagine the top performers are so insecure they can only enjoy races where they clobber the less experienced guys by huge margins. Separation isn't very important in this format. OG
    Wolfy and oldgold have it right here. Pacesetters who earn slow handicaps on the steeper hills at qualifiers, who then come back to their flat home hill and master (relatively speaking, of course) their course end up setting par times that make for unrealistically poor handicaps for the poor folks who come to race there.

    The proof would be seeing AJ or Nyman come into one of these flat venues and try to ski the par time. No way Jose would they be able to, at some of these places, I'm sure of that. Breck is a good example. Let's see them try to ski Breck in the 18 something second par times they sometimes have there. Don't make me laugh. The best guys at Breck are skiing that course in 21 something on good days, and perhaps on rare occasion into the mid 20's on a super fast snow day. There's only so much more time left to be found in a flat hill like Breck, and it ain't that much. With an 18 something par time AJ and Nyman would never ski their own handicap.

    I question sometimes if the cap time could even match some of the par times. Have you tried that at Breck, Wolfman? The par time is suppose to be AT LEAST 5 percent slower than the cap time. I haven't tested it "yet", but I have serious doubts they're meeting that standard there sometimes.
    Last edited by FastMan; 03-04-2012 at 06:38 AM.
    GOOD LUCK, HAVE FUN, GO FAST !!

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  9. #29
    But the solution is much easier than having this top racers visit gzillion resorts to repace every pacesetter. What would be the point of having national pacesseters race then? ;)

    Floating Current Handicap:

    Let's say that there is a race and the participants are:

    Usian Lightning Bolt handicap 3
    Bode Decent Dude handicap 14
    and Adi Texas Gaper handicap 28

    They set these times:

    Usian 20.48
    Bode 20.64
    Adi 22.33

    Even with only these three racers, handicap calculation should be easy without pacesetters.

    Instead of awarding Usian with another 3 handicap for his really bad performance, you actually punish him for not being fast enough against the other two, and you still reward other two for performing well against the Bolt.

    Here is the calculation:
    Average time: (20.48, 20.64, 22.34) is 21.15
    Average handicap: 15

    Calculated par time: 18.39 (you do the math)

    This race, and New current handicaps (you do the math):

    Usian: 11.36
    Bode: 12.23
    Adi: 21.42

    All these racers keep their previous handicaps for average, state, resort, and national rankings, but they current handicap rolls.

    But then, I understand that NASTAR race is primarily another fun family activity on the slopes, and not serious racers event.

  10. #30
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    But Adi, your calculation does not consider the possibility that the flatness of the hill where the race was conducted might have played a role in the condensed spacing in times. If the case, and Usian actually did ski it the best he could, poor Bode and Texas Adi did not get a representative handicap of how they actually did on that course, on that day.

    Should the handicap system be designed to rate a NASTAR racer on how they would do against the National Pacesetter on a Masters level course, or the type of course they generally encounter at their home resort? That's the question NASTAR headquarters needs to come to grips with.

    I can tell you from the people I work with, though, that taking the Masters level perspective leaves people discouraged, and drives them away from wanting to participate.
    GOOD LUCK, HAVE FUN, GO FAST !!

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