# of tries

[putterman]

The State handicap system is disheartening because you want the better of your two runs to count and to be judged by your potential, not your slow day. The National handicap system is an ego booster because ALL your slow days disappear. So, a State handicap keeps you coming back to get rid of that bad day, and a National handicap keeps you coming back because you can't go backwards...you can only improve.

In a way, from a marketing standpoint, it is genius. From an accuracy standpoint, it is faulty.

The ONLY TRUE way to show your capability and skill level is to count your first two runs, on EVERY race day, and average them.

The problem...once you race 7 or 10 times, what is keeping you coming back to Nastar? Your handicap will not change significantly. There are other races out there you could do. Why go do another Nastar?

I for one stick with Nastar races, ones that count toward my handicap, because they DO make a difference with the way it is set up.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, right, or accurate. Far from it. There are a LOT of things that are either inconsistent, or cause false results. Everything from differences in toughness of the hills used, to gate sets, to pacesetters, to not resetting a new Daily Nastar when times get to fast, to repacing, to timer issues, to sandbagging, to Nationals being too different from Daily Nastars, to Nationals being too difficult, to resorts that make it too easy to get Platinums, to resorts that make it impossible to get Platinums, to this system being too darn difficult to figure out for anyone but those of us who have been racing it for years. Did I miss anything? I'm sure I did. The point is, even with all its faults, the way it is set up works. It works because we all keep coming back. THAT is what makes it successful. That said, it is ever changing and HQ does listen. If we didn't keep coming back, THEN the program would be broken, THEN it would need fixing...to bring people back to it. In my opinion, it isn't broken. Could it use a polish? Yeah, but it doesn't need revamping.

I am NOT slamming anyone for their thoughts on this (or any other) subject. I totally agree that the State handicap can be misrepresent a person's ability. I totally agree that the National handicap system will most definitely put you in the wrong division if you race enough. But, unless you race Nationals type hills/courses, you will likely be in the wrong division anyway. So, it only matters IF you go to Nationals. Otherwise, your handicap is right in line with a Daily Nastar racer. And IF you go to Nationals, just EXPECT to be amongst sandbaggers that care only about winning.

Someone has the sig line that says something to the respects of "If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you didn't win at all". Those who sandbag know they are sandbagger, and everyone around them knows it, too. They may have a medal around their necks, but they are losers.

End of rant. :) Sorry...

[walleye1a]

Hey,riding29,Good luck . hammer'em

[ChiTownChick]

The problem...once you race 7 or 10 times, what is keeping you coming back to Nastar? Your handicap will not change significantly. There are other races out there you could do. Why go do another Nastar?

I for one stick with Nastar races, ones that count toward my handicap, because they DO make a difference with the way it is set up.

I keep racing each day I can because regardless of my handicap I just like racing through the gates. It's a rush. Next year I plan to branch out into other racing besides Nastar so I probably will not race as many Nastar days, but still race the same amount (I hope). I think the Nastar system is the best it can be but any system has some flaws. And I agree, the only people who really care about whether they place in a division that is too high are those going to Nationals which is a small percentage of those who race Nastar.

I personally believe that the handicaps for we women over 50 are way too generous, but that is another topic for another thread and I don't feel like opening that can of worms now.

CTC

[oldgold76]

I'm not saying the system is perfect, right, or accurate. Far from it. There are a LOT of things that are either inconsistent, or cause false results. Everything from differences in toughness of the hills used, to gate sets, to pacesetters, to not resetting a new Daily Nastar when times get to fast, to repacing, to timer issues, to sandbagging, to Nationals being too different from Daily Nastars, to Nationals being too difficult, to resorts that make it too easy to get Platinums, to resorts that make it impossible to get Platinums, to this system being too darn difficult to figure out for anyone but those of us who have been racing it for years. Did I miss anything? I'm sure I did. The point is, even with all its faults, the way it is set up works. It works because we all keep coming back. THAT is what makes it successful. That said, it is ever changing and HQ does listen. If we didn't keep coming back, THEN the program would be broken, THEN it would need fixing...to bring people back to it. In my opinion, it isn't broken. Could it use a polish? Yeah, but it doesn't need revamping.

I am NOT slamming anyone for their thoughts on this (or any other) subject. I totally agree that the State handicap can be misrepresent a person's ability. I totally agree that the National handicap system will most definitely put you in the wrong division if you race enough. But, unless you race Nationals type hills/courses, you will likely be in the wrong division anyway. So, it only matters IF you go to Nationals. Otherwise, your handicap is right in line with a Daily Nastar racer. And IF you go to Nationals, just EXPECT to be amongst sandbaggers that care only about winning.

Hey, Putterman- I absolutely agree with almost everything you say here, and that's saying alot! Nice job of summarizing what has been presented here in about a thousand posts over the past five years. The only thing I wonder about is why NASTAR doesn't conduct an on-line survey once in awhile to check out how the participants are feeling about all these important topics. That way, if they make a change, they can say it was somehow connected to the will of the racers. Good luck at Nationals. Let us know how it goes for you. OG

[Racer X]

Putterman, good rant! I agree with most everything you said -

NASTAR........It is what it is. Accept it, as have all of us who race and post here.

If your race this long enough, you will see firsthand all the good and the bad that NASTAR has to offer;, the "golden days" when you get a handicap you probably don't really deserve; the days when the pacesetter blisters the track, the par time is like 11 seconds, and even AJ, Steve Nyman, or Bode could not beat par with straight line tuck with no gates; the sandbagger who waits until after the cutoff date for qualifying, jumps from bronze or silver to platinum, then ends up on the podium at Nationals; and I could go on and on.

And yes, that's my sig line, putterman, and it applies to sailboat racing (trust me - you want to see funny stuff going on, race a sailboat in a competitive fleet) ski racing, and most parts of life in general.

That sig line is something I tell the kids I coach in High School Sailing on day one of practice each fall. One other thing I tell them that I think applies - "In 5 years, no one will remember who won or lost (except maybe the guy/girl who won) but trust me, everyone will remember the cheater, sandbagger,or poor sport, and they'll remember them for a lot longer than 5 years. You don't want to be the one they remember!"

Something to think about.

End of my rant, and as always..............

........JMHO

[chuckp7600]

If they want to limit it to your first 2 runs, it would be nice if there was also a practice course available. Around here the only way the average person is going to get to run gates is Nastar, and it would be awful tough to ever improve if you only could ski 2 runs a few times a year.

[putterman]

chuckp7600, I don't think anyone is proposing that you are limited to two runs. Rather that only the best of your first two runs counts. Anything after that would be considered practice.

As it is, I've raced 4 times this year (actually 5 but one day was two runs in a non Nastar event). My handicap is therefore my State handicap, and that is a 7.83 Platinum. If I had one more race day, I no matter how badly I did (because the worst is dropped anyway) I would have a National handicap. That would be the average of my 2-4th best daily results. So, that would be a 7.83 (P), 12.37 (G), and 11.85 (G). Which gives me an average of 10.683 (P). NOW, if we only went by the fastest of my first two runs, the results would be... 9.90 (P), 12.96 (G), and 12.76 (G), 8.57 (P) for an average of 11.048 (G). I won't bore you with the any more details, but it my fastest day was dropped and my slowest day was dropped (assuming my slowest day would be the next time I raced), and we just used the fastest of my first two runs, my handicap would be a 11.873 (G). And this last one is getting more accurate.

[flyin]

Many good points by many people. My opinion (after a few years of analyzing stats until my head explodes) is that the handicap system is as good as it can be for "theoretical" comparisons. Even if you were to use the best of first two runs it would change things only on paper. The only real way to compare yourself to someone else is to race them same course same day. The only time your handicap really comes into play is qualifying for Nationals. If you really, really, REALLY care that much about making the podium then maybe NASTAR isn't the right venue for you? In most divisions there is so much cross over between skill levels that it is impossible to have a handicap system to even out the playing field based on regular NASTAR courses across the country. Maybe the only way to really get an accurate skill level distribution at Nationals is to have an extra race day. The first day (of 3) racing days would be the bracket/division qualifier.

[oldgold76]

My opinion (after a few years of analyzing stats until my head explodes) is that the handicap system is as good as it can be for "theoretical" comparisons.

That about sums it up, flyin. The NASTAR system is sort of like the USGA golf handicapping system, in that neither is an exact science. In the golf version, as you know, you submit your adjusted handicap after each round. If you don't adjust it properly (discarding a potentially significant number of strokes in the process) you won't allow the handicap to work as it's designed and your handicap won't be valid. There have been many logical suggestions for improvements to both systems, but when all is said and done it's likely that any of the "improvements" would offer shortcomings of their own. In both cases, golf and skiing, everyone is playing by the same rules, hopefully, and given that the handicapping system does give us an idea of a racer's general performance potential. Good luck at Nationals. Who knows, maybe this will be your year. OG

[putterman]

OG, funny point you make about all of us playing by the same rules. In theory, we are. In application, we aren't. In golf, I would guess that 8 out of 10 golfers brakes a scoring rule in every round of golf. Most golfers don't know the ruling differences between a red, yellow, and white stake. I've seen PLENTY of golfers find their ball just on the other side of a white stake, and either hit it from there, or take a drop on this side of the white stake (free drop), or even taking the drop and taking a penalty stroke...all wrong. How about grounding the club in a hazzard or a trap. Or taking a practice swing in a hazzard and hitting the grass or whatever...penalty. But how does the golf handicap system account for that? It can't. Likewise, in skiing, some resorts don't follow ALL the rules ALL the time. Resetting the Daily Nastar to a Daily Nastar 2; the pacesetter taking only taking one run...good or bad, and using that to establish a par time; the pacesetter not liking that someone beat his time, so he goes down again and resets...45 minutes after he originally set the pace. Stuff like that.

There is another BIG inconsistancy in the general public's Nastar Handicap. We only have one handicap. Regardless of coat or suit. This makes it hard to compare people's handicaps, too, because, as we all know, a suit can take a good second off your coat time. While I fully understand (now) that whether the pacesetter runs in a coat or in a suit, as long as he uses his appropriate handicap (coat or suit) that it doesn't matter what he is in. And I also realize that regardless of what the pacesetter uses, his time which helps create the par time, is supposed to be what a National Pacesetter would have done in a suit. So, we should all race in suits to get the most accurate handicap, and that racing in a coat only hurts you (meaning that racing in a suit isn't "cheating" the system...it is what you are SUPPOSED to do). But, we only get one handicap. So, if you take my brother and I. We are pretty close to one another. Sometimes he beats me, sometimes I beat him. But if he only raced in a suit and I only raced in a coat, he would ALWAYS beat me by about a second...which would give me about 4 more handicap points. I realize having two handicaps for every racer isn't easy. Not sure if it is even needed. But when you are looking at your competition's handicaps at Nationals, you don't know if the guy with the 14 handicap is a coat racer, and the guy with the 10 handicap is a suit racer...therefore actually making them pretty darn equal at Nationals because they will both be in suits.