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  1. #11
    RacerX
    I would think they'd be able to record your subsequent times without using those handicaps to determine your ranking. Given your scenario anyone who would accuse you of sandbagging, is confusing sandbagging with improvement. Just a case of sour grapes. Also we don't seem to agree about the difference between course inspection and practice.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTBear View Post
    I agree with Racer X. I too will "forerun" certain NASTAR hills to see the course. Most NASTAR venues don't allow inspection and yet I like to know the course set I'm running.

    Here's some more controversy for this discussion. Let EVERYONE run unlimited, if they so choose. EVERYONE = Pacesetter's and NASTAR racers.

    Whaddya think? Attachment 16
    I would be fine with the scenario of the pacesetter getting unlimited runs too. But just like the rest of us, make him wait in line......don't take cuts just because you're the pacesetter.

    Best scenario is to have the pacesetter make two runs right off the bat, and take his best time ofthe two. Most pacesetters would be good with this scenario, I think

    Only drawback to this scenario that I an see would be that the paceset time, and thus par time, would not be set until the end of the day, and many, if not most, recreational racers would not know how they did, and would not be able to get their medal, as most will be long gone by the time the pacesetter is happy he has gone the fastest he can go.

    We need to not confuse the recreational racers, who make a few runs, and are not all that concerned with a couple of 10th, with the die hard fanatics who populate this forum (like me) who would run NASTAR constantly, just because I think it's FUN!

    JMHO
    Last edited by Racer X; 02-01-2011 at 02:39 PM.
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  3. #13
    Some of us recreational racers are only now finding out that NASTAR was intended to be some kind of marathon,last man standing,sort of deal.

  4. #14
    I'm new and still learning the official and unwritten rules. If the pacesetter sets the par time running cold why does a 7th run count? Maybe someone who is a platinum isn't going to improve that much but a bronze level skier has the potential to take seconds off their time by going down 10 times. I guess I'd like to see only the first two or three count towards national handicap so everyone is ranked in a similar fashion, but I'm sure there would be more controversy about that too.

    I will give some credit to the guys running the show. They seem to be trying to put some checks and balances into the system to make sure everything is fair. And very anxious to see this event first hand in a week.
    Last edited by riding29; 03-16-2011 at 07:02 AM.

  5. #15
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    There is much to be learned in running a course as many times a day as you can. As the course deteriorates and gets rutted up, learning to ski it without fear helps prepare you for your 2nd run at nationals or other competition.
    LB
    WAL18

  6. #16
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riding29 View Post
    I'm new and still learning the official and unwritten rules. If the pacesetter sets the par time running cold why does a 7th run count? Maybe someone who is a platinum isn't going to improve that much but a bronze level skier has the potential to take seconds off their time by going down 10 times. I guess I'd like to see only the first two or three count towards national handicap so everyone is ranked in a similar fashion, but I'm sure there would be more controversy about that too.

    I will give some credit to the guys running the show. They seem to be trying to put some checks and balances into the system to make sure everything is fair. And very anxious to see this event first hand in a week.
    Riding29 - welcome to the forum - you bring up some pertinent questions that have been asked previously by others - there is credence to only making a limited number of inital runs count toward your scored handicap, but as LBWalkup pointed out, there is benefit to running in a rutted, deteriotaing course too.

    If you really examine results in detail, you'll find that after about the 3rd-4th run, most racers no longer improve, and their times actually start getting slower - this has to do with the course slowing down, etc, but many (including me) will continue to make additional runs, just to practice - I will sometimes work on a technique I want to try out, or try to over-emphasize a certain technique (i.e. - hands forward, retracted inside leg, etc) to help ingrain the move into muscle memory, etc.

    Many of us weekend NASTAR warriors only get to run on weekends, so we take advantage of all the time in the gates we can, as much to practice as to actually try to score lower times.

    There is nothing better than timed practice runs to find out what technique changes work and what doesn't. And I think many of us here use the NASTAR course for exactly that.

    And I agree with you that most of the Pacesetters running their own NASTAR courses take pride in making sure they run a good and fair race, so they do look out for things to make sure that it's fair for everybody.

    Again, welcome ot the forum, and it sounds like you're going to Nationals this year - if so, join us at the forum gatherings at the West Portal bar 7 pm on Thursday, Friday and Saturday evenings to put some faces to the names you read here - we'd love to have you join us!
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by riding29 View Post
    Maybe someone who is a platinum isn't going to improve that much but a bronze level skier has the potential to take seconds off their time by going down 10 times.
    Just to be clear, NASTAR should measure your actual ability (in theory). If a bronze skier, after multiple runs, earns a sliver then they are no longer a bronze skier. As their ability improves, so does their ranking whether it occurs over 10 runs on one day or 10 runs over 5 days.

    Now the only issue I have with the current system is the transition between a State Ranking and a National Ranking. The racers who only participate 1-2 days seem to be the most likely to be in a mis-leading category. I have seen folks with bronze runs and platinum runs. If they only run two days, they could end up in a different category than is representative of their true ability. Nationals now has the breakout rule which should capture that at Nationals but it doesn't fix the rankings.

    Chris D.

  8. #18
    WOW! hope ya got more out of all that than I did.

  9. #19
    Senior Member putterman's Avatar
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    Clear to me...
    I drink, therefore I am!
    CRU145

  10. #20
    Senior Member ChiTownChick's Avatar
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    I agree with you Chris, the state ranking is where the shenanigans usually happen. If someone gets to the national ranking level they usually have not sandbagged, although I have seen some who do. Just using 2 days of racing to rank people is a problem but I am not sure how else Nastar could do it and do not have a better solution.

    Also, the ranking system puts those of us who race 10-15 Nastar days a year at a disadvantage as far as rankings and division placement is concerned. Its just too easy to have 4 good runs if you race Nastar that many days. All you need is one good run on four different days to move you up to a division that is above your ability on a consistent basis.



    CTC

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