+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 41

Thread: Ski separtation

  1. #21
    Senior Member ChiTownChick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    851
    In.racer what I mean by working the edge is getting up on it and holding it strong throughout the turn. My weight is already on the outside ski so its doing more wiith the edge than I have been doing. I did feel like my inside ski was more for balance than anything else.

    I just hope tomorrow I can do it again!

    Thanks for the advice,

    CTC

  2. #22
    Senior Member putterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,587
    Great job on your handicaps, CTC. Knock 'em dead tomorrow!
    I drink, therefore I am!
    CRU145

  3. #23
    Senior Member ChiTownChick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    851
    Today was good again, my raw times were just as good as yesterday but handicaps were slightly higher due to a tougher pacesetter which was ok. I am very happy with the day so thanks again for the tips you pros. Hope I still have enough energy for one more day tomorrow.

    Chestnut shuts down Nastar racing after the Presidents Day weekend every year for snowboarding on the Nastar hill. So this is my last chance to race at Chestnut, my home hill, this year. I will have to hit Cascade and Tyrol Basin after this weekend to stay up on things for Nationals. Cascade is comparable to Chestnut, but Tyrol Basin's Nastar is much harder. It will be good practice for me.

    CTC

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    129
    Spend plenty of time outside of the gates practicing so the movement patterns are firmly set. Freeskiing is where we develop skillsets, and gates are where we apply them.

    Congrats on the Golds.

  5. #25
    Senior Member ChiTownChick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    851
    Spend plenty of time outside of the gates practicing so the movement patterns are firmly set. Freeskiing is where we develop skillsets, and gates are where we apply them.

    Congrats on the Golds.
    [/b]



    I will do that Mike and thanks again!

    CTC

  6. #26
    Senior Member Stockliman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Braintree, MA
    Posts
    341
    I had responsed to Gerry's original post several threads back & was pleased to see that there was some very useful comments to the issue of diverging skis. Since I'm also a victim of this condition I posted to another ski racing forum & received some very useful feedback so I thought I'd share the response (I hope the author doesn't mind):

    The most common reason for the inside ski diverging is sequential leg rotation.
    Couple that with being a little back through the transition and into the top of
    the new turn and you've got all the ingredients.

    The first thing I always look at (and you know this) is the boots. Are they
    aligned properly and are they tall enough allowing for plenty of flexion
    before we get to maximum knee flexion. Another question would be are
    you able to extend the outside leg in the turn or are you forced to ski with
    knee bend to do the forward lean in your boots.

    Let's assume that the boots are spot on. We go back to the fore/aft position
    of the hips and look at this position from A to Z in the turn. If we just
    looked at the end of the turn the whole story may come out. Are you
    getting on your heels at the end of the turns? If the answer is yes then your
    comment about not being forward enough may have merit. But rather
    then forward enough perhaps its that your hips are lagging behind throughout
    the turn which in turn is causing you to make an extra move to catch up
    to your skis between turns. This coupled with sequential leg rotation (as
    opposed to simultaneous leg rotation) can be the culprit and cause you
    to "Drag" the inside heel toward your outside ski as you roll that edge
    over to its new edge. That right there is the actual cause of a diverging
    inside ski.

    The two things I'd have you work on is skiing with a functional stance on
    the flats and really work on your ankle rolls looking for clean two footed
    edge changes. Check your tracks and make sure that both skis are carving
    from the top of the turn and that your tracks are the same width from top
    to bottom and especially through your transitions. Then I'd have you
    progressively work this to bigger edge angles and eventually to steeper
    terrain. I'd have you focus on foot boot interface and having it stay on or
    near the balls of your feet throughout every turn or in other words no
    rocking from the balls to the heels.

    Once that is down we'd do the same thing and focus on the hips being over
    the feet and moving the Center of Mass over the platform with enough
    speed that we can get the outside ski up and edge and out away from
    your upper body. This will require you to change both edges simultaneously
    and extend the outside leg (while turning your femur in the hip socket for
    strong edge set).

    Last step is to focus on inside knee flexion. Once you've made a clean
    and balanced Cross-over focus on progressively bending and shortening
    the inside leg so the inside ski is riding on its entire edge (carving). Again
    we'd start on moderate terrain and work this back up to higher edges
    and steeper terrain. One drill you can do for the inside knee is this.

    Moderate to shallow terrain and work with 18 - 20 meter turns at first. Start
    your turn (let's say to the left, right foot outside) with a simultaneous
    ankle roll. As soon as you are balanced on your left edges and you know
    that your hips are up and over your feet (not butt back with a lot of knee
    been, or proper stacking as we'd say) take your left hand and reach down
    and push the left knee increasingly to the left. This will help you roll that
    knee up on edge matching the edge angle of your right ski. Once you
    get the proper amount of inside knee flexion the inside ski will start to
    take over at least 50 percent of the work turning your skis. In other words
    as the inside ski carves (bends or arcs) your radius will quickly pull
    down as both inside and outside ski do the work creating your arc.

    Give that stuff a try and see where it takes you. If you find that none of
    this hits home let me know or get me some video so I'm not guessing
    on the cause of the diverging skis (but I bet you I got it right )

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Mt Wolf, PA
    Posts
    423
    Wow! Tom that is great stuff. I really need to get a lot of practice in before Nationals.

    I raced today and had the lowest handicap so far, ever. It seems what i noticed the most was that I wasn't always putting pressure on the front of my boots. When I do I can feel the difference. When I do not these are what I have noticed. Bad balance because I am breaking more at the waist instead of bending my knees. Sitting on my heels which causes me to skid and I could actually feel my skis separate which also caused my outside ski to go where it wanted to instead of where I wanted it to. This was even more apparent when the course got more choppy.
    Some other things I tried to work on, my hand position, rotating my shoulders, and looking ahead two gates. The hardest part was keeping my inside hand up or punching through the turn and keeping my shoulders down hill. If anyone may have a video on how to do this it would be appreciated because I know I am not doing this right. It seems the two of these are related and I can picture it in my mind but I just can not seem to get it.
    Man is it easy to get tunnel vision. Its funny, when I am at work and I am dealing with multiple scenarios I can keep scanning and stay away from tunnel vision. Granted, that is a life or death circumstance. However, its something that is definitely a learned trait. Today I also made an effort to keep looking ahead two gates. When I did I noticed I seemed to have a better line. Or should I say I had a continuous plan of attack. When ever I bobbled or did not do something I wanted to the tunnel vision came back and I just focused on getting to the next gate which started a snowball effect. Towards the end of the day I was more able to stay focused through most of the course. My times did not improve but I felt like a skied the best line I could have.

    Please keep the comments and articles coming. If there are any useful videos out there please let me know. I looked at a few on you tube but I am not really sure which ones are the right way.

    Best wishes,
    Copper
    Go hard or get outta my way.

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    So. Cal.
    Posts
    107
    I went to a ski camp at Mt. Hood last summer.

    Their basic take on the divergent skis was that it was generally a sign of not keeping weight forward enough - or getting back on your skis.

    This will naturally tend to put weight on the inside ski - as others suggested - because the inside becomes the uphill ski on the bottom portion of the turn - and if your weight is too uphill - the weight goes onto the uphill (inside) ski.

    So although all of the technical discussion about working edges and inside ski weight may all be appropriate and true - the root cause of the problem is likely too much weight back. Correct that and you may not need to address all of the other intricate technical details.

    Your comments in the previous post seem to bear this out. By keeping pressure on the front of the boots - you received your lowest handicap so far. You achieve pressure on the front of your boots by keeping weight forward - forward weight prevents too much pressure on inside ski - resolves divergent ski problem.

    I have an early 1930's ski movie starring Hannes Schneider - the father of modern ski technique training - and he says throughout the movie - "Vorlage!!!" - or "Lean forward!!!" This has always been - and still is one of the major keys to proper ski technique.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Elba Island, MI
    Posts
    1,223
    ...........Their basic take on the divergent skis was that it was generally a sign of not keeping weight forward enough - or getting back on your skis.

    This will naturally tend to put weight on the inside ski - as others suggested - because the inside becomes the uphill ski on the bottom portion of the turn - and if your weight is too uphill - the weight goes onto the uphill (inside) ski.

    So although all of the technical discussion about working edges and inside ski weight may all be appropriate and true - the root cause of the problem is likely too much weight back. Correct that and you may not need to address all of the other intricate technical details.

    Your comments in the previous post seem to bear this out. By keeping pressure on the front of the boots - you received your lowest handicap so far. You achieve pressure on the front of your boots by keeping weight forward - forward weight prevents too much pressure on inside ski - resolves divergent ski problem.

    I have an early 1930's ski movie starring Hannes Schneider - the father of modern ski technique training - and he says throughout the movie - "Vorlage!!!" - or "Lean forward!!!" This has always been - and still is one of the major keys to proper ski technique.[/b]

    All good thoughts.

    Doing weekly race training this season, here are the things my coaches are emphasizing:

    1. Stay low and forward
    2. Look ahead
    3. Outside leg pressure at the apex of the turn
    4. Hands high (up) and forward
    5. Wide feet/stable base

    These are basic skiing techniques, but the result of doing all them is a synopsis of all the posts here. Do all these, and you won't have divergent skis, you'll have good technique, and your NASTAR times will improve.

    Here is the problem.........you cannot think of all these things while actively in a race course. Maybe one or two, but if you start filling your head with all these "swing thoughts" (to use a golf analogy), you'll forget to apply tactics, you'll get late (or low) and your times will not improve, or worse yet, you'll blow out of the course.

    So how do you accomplish all these things without thinking of them, while in the race course? It comes from practice outside the gates. You need to apply all these techniques to your free skiing outside the course, until they become ingrained in YOUR MUSCLE MEMORY. I am a big believer of this.

    You need to free ski, practicing the techniques listed here (and in the other posts) maybe only concentrating one one thing per run, until it becomes second nature, and you do it without thinking. Once that happens, go onto the next thing. Or if you want to do this while running gates, fine, but just concentrate on one thing, and ignore the times, just concentrate on the technique.

    There are nights of race training that I'll spend an entire evening only concentrating on one thing (such as keeping my hands forward, or keeping pressure on the outside leg, etc), and not worrying about anything else. Funny, but when you repeat this over and over, it becomes second nature pretty quickly.

    Once you start getting these things to be second nature, jump in the course, and then trust that your muscle memory will get you through with the proper technique, and you can concentrate on line and tactics, without filling your head with lots of distracting "swing thoughts".

    But the techniques have to be built upon outside of the race course.

    And have patience.

    This does not happen overnight. It takes years to build up all the proper skills to get to become a high level skier, but it's also a lot of fun progressing along the way. I think I have as much fun doing training sessions and interacting with the coaches and fellow skiers, as I do actually racing.

    Some of the things (drills) you can do build up these skills when free skiiing:

    1. As you make GS turns on moderate terrain, concentrate on feeling the tongue of your boot on your shin (teaches you forward pressure - staying forward)

    2. As you ski on moderate terrain, hold you hands up in front of you and "frame" where you are going (teaches you to keep your hands forward and high)

    3. On moderate terrain, make GS turns and actively pull the inside (uphill) ski back at the apex (teaches to keep weight off the inside ski)

    4. On moderate terrain (with no poles) touch the inside hand to the snow (forward of your boots) at the apex of your turn (this teaches you to stay forward, angulate, and keep the inside leg retracted - you cannot do this drill if you are not forward, with a bent/retracted inside leg)

    5. On moderate terrain (again, without poles) make GS turns with your hands on you knees (this teaches you to stay low, and by pushing the hands on the inside of the knees keeps the legs apart (wide, stable base) and initiates the new turn by rolling the inside knee)

    These are just some of the drills to work on outside the course to develop the skills to make gains in the course.

    Again, being able to do these things in the course without thinking about them, based on your muscle memory, is the key to long term success. Once in the course, trust your body, and let your muscle memory take over.

    The only active thoughts I have in the course anymore are to look ahead and if I know I'm coming into a tough section, to really stand on the outside leg.

    Hope some of this helps. Everyone here has posted some really good ideas, that have much more to do than just "divergent skis". Developing these skill will make you a better skier, which is the most important thing in making you a better racer.

    And just to know that I have experiencd the "divergent ski " issue, it still scares me to look at this picture -



    This was training at Howleson Hill before the 2006 NASTAR Nationals at Steamboat - the way my inside (right) ski loaded up, it's no wonder I didn't blow out a knee in this one!

    Ouch!



    JMHO
    If you win, but in so doing, lose the respect of your competitors, you've not won anything at all - Paul Elvestrom - 4 time Danish Olympic gold medalist in Sailing

  10. #30
    Senior Member putterman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,587
    "Here is the problem.........you cannot think of all these things while actively in a race course. Maybe one or two, but if you start filling your head with all these "swing thoughts" (to use a golf analogy), you'll forget to apply tactics, you'll get late (or low) and your times will not improve, or worse yet, you'll blow out of the course." RacerX

    That is EXACTLY what happened to me this weekend on my second run at the Baca Cup. I was THINKING about what everyone was saying about pressure on the outside ski, and lifting the inside leg, and no, it isn't lifting, it is pulling the knee up to your body, and.........AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH CCCCCCCRRRRRAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    While you are racing you HAVE to use the force. Just do it. Be the ball. Whatever chliche works for ya. Don't think IN the gates.
    I drink, therefore I am!
    CRU145

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts