+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: NASTAR Pacesetter Rules

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    26

    NASTAR Pacesetter Rules

    Under what circumstances can a pacesetter re-run the course and re set par 3+ hours into a 4 hour NASTAR race? And can the pacesetter take a bunch of é─˙practiceé─¨ runs after his initial morning practice run (having the guy at the computer enter him as a forerunner) and then do a later, second pacesetting run? This seems completely improper to me é─ý pacesetters doné─˘t get to practice.

    Just to be clear, there were no significant changes in conditions during the day that would lead someone to feel the need to reset the handicap é─ý that was not the issue. I also want to be clear that this had nothing to do with the change in handicaps from correcting an error in the computer where the Pacesetteré─˘s handicap was initially entered into the computer as a 0.12 instead of a 12.0. That was corrected as it should have been. The issue is whether it is OK for a pacesetter to take multiple practice runs while the race is ongoing, and then take the é─˙officialé─¨ pacesetting run at the end of the day.

    If I am correct, how do we get the results changed to reflect the initial pacesetting time. BTW, this was the Spirit Mountain Daily Nastar 1/27. This matters to me because of how it will potentially impact qualifying for nationals for a kid who qualified last year, but wasné─˘t able to attend, but whom we want to get there this year.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    346
    I could make an arguement that the forerunning should be allowed. What other way can the pacesetter determine that the course is safe for the general public other than to run it? What if they mess up and have to through the skis sideways or something to complete the course, they should re-run for a good valid time.

    As for the 3 hours later- if the conditions change, yes re-paceset (and according to Nationals close out that ealier race and start a new one) if the pacesetter has a run so that someone beats the par time (like the Boyne thread with handicaps of less than 1 until the Nastar office recalculated the race using another racer for the pacesetter of the day.

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    26
    This wasn't an issue of the pacsetter messing up, or the course changing.

    On his second or third run, his time was within 0.01 of his initial run. I don't have a problem with the pacesetter running the course multiple times during the day - hey, he should be able to have fun too. What I object to is re-setting the par time after multiple runs through the course.

  4. #4
    Administrator JTBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,417

    Here's the NASTAR rule for Pacesetting

    Plotman:

    Check out the Pacesetter integrity rules. (from the NASTAR Web site) Does either situation described in the attached link fit the issue you are highlighting?

    http://www.nastar.com/index.jsp?pagename=r...tinfo#integrity

    If not, shoot me a PM and we can discuss.

    JTBear
    Forum Moderator
    <img src=http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL425/637370/22527991/376059857.jpg border=0 alt= />
    Carve Diem!! Charge The Course!!

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    26
    Got this cleared up with JTBear's help - the was the race was wrong was incorrect. From reading a few posts here on the forum and talking to HQ, it seems as if this is a very common problem.

    For those that are curious, as long as no one is posting sub-zero handicaps (which is a special case), if a pacesetter re-runs a course and gets a handicap either 2 points better or 2 points worse than his/her handicap used to set par, then the race is ended immediately and a new race is started using the new handicap as par. However, all results earned up to that point stand.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Racer X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Elba Island, MI
    Posts
    1,223
    Originally posted by Plotman
    Got this cleared up with JTBear's help - the was the race was wrong was incorrect. ČćFrom reading a few posts here on the forum and talking to HQ, it seems as if this is a very common problem. Čć

    For those that are curious, as long as no one is posting sub-zero handicaps (which is a special case), if a pacesetter re-runs a course and gets a handicap either 2 points better or 2 points worse than his/her handicap used to set par, then the race is ended immediately and a new race is started using the new handicap as par. ČćHowever, all results earned up to that point stand.
    Someone should let the folks at Vail in on that :wink:

    Ok, Ok, I know, beat a dead horse, etc, etc

  7. #7
    Hi Guys,

    I&#39;m new to this and realize I&#39;m late to jump on the bandwagon, but this business of re-pacesetting a race "when the official feels like it" is wrong. If the boss man or woman feels a need to re-pace, then a new race should be started - every time - no ifs, ands, or buts. :evil:

    Does Nastar HQ send out a list of reminders, dos, and/or don&#39;ts at the beginning of each season? If not, now&#39;s an excellent time to get on this. Thanks.

    -oldmaidracer

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Mt Wolf, PA
    Posts
    423
    Hi Guys,

    I&#39;m new to this and realize I&#39;m late to jump on the bandwagon, but this business of re-pacesetting a race "when the official feels like it" is wrong. If the boss man or woman feels a need to re-pace, then a new race should be started - every time - no ifs, ands, or buts. :evil:

    Does Nastar HQ send out a list of reminders, dos, and/or don&#39;ts at the beginning of each season? If not, now&#39;s an excellent time to get on this. Thanks.

    -oldmaidracer[/b]
    I cant answer the question but I can say welcome to the forum.
    Go hard or get outta my way.

  9. #9
    Administrator JTBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,417
    Welcome to the NASTAR Forum!!! :wink:

    Here&#39;s the NASTAR guidance to all resorts on Pacesetting and Repacesetting:



    Pacesetting Integrity

    Re-handicapping

    It is not uncommon for pacesetters get faster during the season. Pacesetters can "re-handicap" if they feel they are skiing faster or if they feel they are skiing slower than they did at the Regional Pacesetting Trials. Pacesetters can re-handicap by racing against other pacesetters with certified handicaps and earning a National Average Handicap. If a pacesetter&#39;s National Average Handicap is lower or higher than the handicap they earned at the pacesetting trials, the pacesetter or their NASTAR Coordinator can request to have their handicap reviewed for an update. All re-handicapping requests MUST be approved by NASTAR. Contact Bill Madsen at 970.923.6278 or bmadsen@nastar.com for re-handicapping requests.


    Proactive Pacesetting

    Public Nature Valley NASTAR courses that are open for long periods of time can experience diverse course conditions. When course conditions are variable, pacesetters should continually test the Par Time. If a pacesetter can earn a handicap that is two points lower than their pacesetting handicap, the course is getting faster and a new Par Time should be used. In addition, if the course gets slower and the pacesetter cannot earn a handicap that is within two points of their pacesetting handicap, a new Par Time should be used.

    Example:
    Joe Fast is a pacesetter with a handicap of 10. Six inches of new snow fell the night before the race, and even though the hill has been groomed the course is still soft. Joe Fast pacesets the course and posts a time of 25.00 seconds. With his handicap of 10, the Par Time is 22.72. After 30 people race the course Joe Fast slides into the start to test the Par Time. The timer enters him as a racer using his NASTAR Registration Number. Joe feels his skis sliding much faster across the snow and posts a time of 24.25, which earns him a handicap of 6.73. The timer writes down Joe&#39;s time of 24.25 on a piece of paper; deletes his time from the race and saves the race. The timer opens a new race; enters Joe Fast as the Pacesetter with a time 24.25, handicap of 10, Par Time 22.04. The timer then uses the command, Copy Competitors from another race, and continues timing the race. (In the NASTAR software, on the Competitors tab, click on the option labeled, OTHER and select, Copy Competitors from another race. Select the date or name of the race you had been timing and all of your competitors will be automatically added to the new race. You are ready to send your next racer.)

    Later in the day the course is rutted and icy but the race is only scheduled to run for 45 minutes more so resetting doesn&#39;t make sense. Joe Fast races again but he can only post a time of 26.00 seconds with a handicap of 17.96. Again, the timer writes down Joe&#39;s time, deletes his time from the race and open a new race. The competitors are copied from the previous race and Joe is entered as the pacesetter with a time of 26.00. Now the Par Time is 23.63 and your guests can compete against a more accurate Par Time. Participants will be more likely to take reruns because they will have a fair chance at winning a medal. If it is a dual course, Joe must paceset both courses.
    The process of changing the Par Time takes less than 30 seconds and the course will maintain a consistent Par Time for the participants. It is the race staff&#39;s responsibility to keep the guests informed and to let them know why the pacesetter is racing again. Your guests will be more likely to take additional runs through your Nature Valley NASTAR course if they feel as if the course conditions will not reduce their chance of posting a good handicap or winning a medal.


    Reactive Pacesetting

    If a participant in any Nature Valley NASTAR race beats the Par Time, this means the resort pacesetter has not accurately set the Par Time for the course. Negative handicaps are not accepted within the NASTAR Handicap System because it is generally accepted that Nature Valley NASTAR participants are not capable of beating the National Pacesetter. If a racer beats the Par Time the NASTAR Coordinator has two options.

    The Pacesetter can race the course again and attempt to lower the Par Time by skiing the course faster.Open a new race and have your pacesetter race again. Add the racer that beat the Par Time to the new race with his time and continue timing your race.
    If the Pacesetter cannot lower the Par Time to eliminate the negative handicap, the racer that beat the Par Time must be inserted as the pacesetter and a new race is started.
    If a race is posted on nastar.com with a negative handicap the race will be recalculated using the fastest racer as the pacesetter for the race. The racer that beats the Par Time is inserted as the pacesetter and his/her NASTAR National Average Handicap is used to set the Par Time. If the participant does not have a National Average Handicap, the racer&#39;s State Ranking Handicap will be used to set the Par Time. If the participant does not have a State Ranking Handicap, the racer&#39;s Resort Ranking Handicap will be used to set the Par Time. This rule will also be applied to Nature Valley NASTAR races where 50% of the participants in the race earn a handicap that is 10 points below their next best result. This process must be followed to maintain the integrity of the National Standard, the National Pacesetter and the Nature Valley NASTAR program.
    <img src=http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL425/637370/22527991/376059857.jpg border=0 alt= />
    Carve Diem!! Charge The Course!!

  10. #10
    Administrator patmoore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ludlow, VT
    Posts
    2,685
    Welcome Old Maid Racer!

    I think JT covered your question very well.

    I was the NASTAR coordinator for Okemo this past season (until an injury). Our course is a fairly gentle pitch. When set with two courses it&#39;s not wide enough to put in crankers. As a result, the courses usually held up fairly well. There was rarely a need to reset the pace.

    JT brought up another point about adjusting the pacesetters handicap. I did so poorly at the trials (steeper, turnier, and icier than I was used to) that I would have had a disproportionately high handicap and that would have made it difficult for racers at Okemo to earn medals. Bill Madsen revised my handicap to match what I earned at the Nationals the prior year. Ironically, I raced against AJ Kitt at both the Nationals and the pacesetting trials. It was an equitable resolution.

    "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room"
    "When you're over the hill, you pick up speed!"
    NASTAR# MOO95 Ski Race Record
    NASTAR# MOO2023 Snowboard Race Record

    SuburbanSkiAndBike.com
    GoldenYearsGeek.com
    pat-moore.artistwebsites.com


+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. NASTAR Rigs the Michigan Pacesetter Trials
    By dakine in forum Results and Rankings
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 02-01-2011, 10:20 PM
  2. Story on Nastar Pacesetter Trials
    By Luvtorace in forum General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-13-2008, 12:58 AM
  3. NEW NASTAR RULES 2005-06
    By NASTAR HQ in forum NASTAR Rules
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-25-2005, 05:56 PM
  4. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-14-2005, 06:17 PM
  5. Current NASTAR Rules
    By Lil-Feet in forum NASTAR Rules
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-21-2005, 07:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts