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Thread: Lost in space: counterbend v. crossover?

  1. #1
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    Lost in space: counterbend v. crossover?

    Where should a racers upper body be? Counterbend, from the waist, over the outside ski, so more weight goes on the outside. This seems like a good strategy for getting a clean carve for those of us who keep too much weight on the inside ski. Or cross over, which sounds more aggressive, but it places greater mass over the inside ski.

  2. #2
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    My coaches tell me that you want to have about equal weight on both feet if at all possible...It doesn't happen most of the time but you should shoot for that. Keep your eyes down the hill but don't counter roate.
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  3. #3
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    Not really one or the other, Will Robinson

    Originally posted by skidude
    My coaches tell me that you want to have about equal weight on both feet if at all possible...It doesn't happen most of the time but you should shoot for that.  Keep your eyes down the hill but don't counter roate.
    Cool - modern ski technique discussion. For those of you needing a refresher, link over here and then come back: http://www.youcanski.com/english/coaching/...n_technique.htm

    Crossover and angulation are two different things, so it's not really one or the other. Crossover is where you move your center of mass (i.e., belly button) from one side of your skis to the other. You need to do this on GS courses on steep terrain so you can initiate the turn well. (Contrast this with SL skiing, where your skis swim like little fishies under your upper body, while your upper body stays quiet and pretty much faces down hill. That's called "cross under.")

    Bending at the waist, a.k.a., angulation, is when you keep your upper body perpendicular to the snow, even though your hip is really low and your legs are almost parallel with the snow.

    When do you do one, the other, or both? (If you read the link, you probably know the answer.) It all depends on the slope, your speed, the radius of the turn leading to the next gate, etc.

    If the NASTAR course is really flat and speeds are slow, it'll be hard to do too much crossover. Because it's flat, you'll be able to carve the whole turn (arcing) without much crossover. In this case, down unweighting and crossunder is faster. (Down unweighting what you do when you try to absorb a bump without catching air.) If you down unweight at the end of a turn, you can let the skis "swim" over to the other side of your body and start the turn in the other direction without moving your upper body much. On flat terrain or corn snow, this is being "soft on your edges" and is usually faster.

    For the Nationals, the course is pretty flat and probably soft, so you'll likely start with crossunder and move to cross over on the latter turns if you are moving fast enough, or the course is rutted enough to pack the snow and firm up.

    Angulation, bending into the "comma shape", will help get a higher edge, more weight on the outside ski, and preps the body for quicker initiation into the next turn. So, it's good to do to if you need a tighter line and it's steep or the next turn is sharp. When you angulate, you can get the skis on a higher edge than if you lean in. (PM me if you want an explantion - its too hard to describe here.) Also, it's easier to stay forward if you angulate. If you lean in, its really easy for you to get your weight back or too much on the inside ski and have your skis wash out from under you.

    Can you see evidence of both in World Cup skiing? Sure. They are going lots faster than we do. Sometimes, they just need to line up their skeletons a bit more to withstand the G forces. If you look at the link referenced at the beginning, under #2 (right photo) you'll see the skier leaning (inclinating). His entire body is at the same angle and his shoulders are tipped. Under #3 (left photo), you'll see that skier is angulating; the shoulders are relatively level. To ski NASTAR well, you want to be a #3 'cause you probably aren't going fast enough for #2.

    As for weight 50/50 on both feet. I dunno. You definitely want weight on the inside ski to make it carve cleanly. Half your weight? Hey, if you can do it, great. I find it too hard, especially on "eastern hardpack", and settle for 70/30 or 60/40 on a really good day.

    If you are going to the championships and taking clinics, ask your instructor if you can explore these concepts. Technique wins races.

  4. #4
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    BobHarwood:
    Thank you for taking the time to detail this. I've heard a lot of these things before, but the overall pic isn't yet consolidated in my mind. This will help.

    Racing is like adding layers on an onion.

  5. #5
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    Cross Over

    Originally posted by mumster
    BobHarwood:
    Thank you for taking the time to detail this.   I've heard a lot of these things before, but the overall pic isn't yet consolidated in my mind.  This will help.  

    Racing is like adding layers on an onion.
    Bob, GREAT RESPONSE and the Link is good too. I've been working on my own little project and have been teaching (to those willing to be subject to "fanatical dedication to RecRacing") a thing called the MSRT Progression. To add to those layers of the onion we teach two "Cross-over" techniques

    The passive cross-over

    This is what you described. It is simply moving your upper body down hill inside of the new turn just before the "Release". Of course, many racers get a little confused looking still photos seeing racers in the start of the cross over in the "anticipated inclinated" postion and think that they should be in this postion for much of the turn, when in reality it lasts for 100ths of a second.

    The Active cross-over

    Now this is really fun and usually will lead to the feared and misunderstood "Pivot" (usually on steeper or icy slopes and/or stacked turns). Everything is the same except for one added element, pushing quickly and powerfully off of the uphill inside ski edge. This accelerates the speed of the cross over and can launch you. It is great way to learn the "pivot" as it will make it easier to get the skis "displaced" and into the fall line before you "Stick 'em".

    When out skiing on moderate slopes, try pushing off the inside ski as you make your cross-over, right at the release. As Bob says, your skis will swim underneath you and far out to the side as your upper body follows a smaller radius to the inside of the new turn and so on.

    Try it, its fun and exciting.

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by Skiodor Doesgjdski

    I've been working on my own little project and have been teaching (to those willing to be subject to \"fanatical dedication to RecRacing\") a thing called the MSRT Progression.  
    I've been waiting to see you weigh in on this one Coach!! :P

    Tell us about MSRT Progression. I have seen you quote this a couple of times. You have my interest. How's that neck? :wink:

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    As noted, great stuff Bob. Thanks......... :D


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    Skiodor Doesgjdski:

    You lost me - Does the skier push off the inside edge of the outside ski, or off of the inside ski? :?:

  8. #8
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    Active Cross Over

    Originally posted by mumster
    Skiodor Doesgjdski:

    You lost me - Does the skier push off the inside edge of the outside ski, or off of the inside ski?  :?:
    Mum, I haven't re-read what I posted, I may have made a typo. There are three families of turn entries. All of this refers to GS turns.

    Passive Crossover

    Simply moving the CM of your body downhill, inside of your turn. Once you learn how to "Tip", this is the natural and easy way to entry the new turn. This is used in flatter sections of the course in both the "high tuck" and hands down. I'll leave it simple for now,.

    Active Crossover

    This is the one you are asking about. Finishing the turn one pushes quickly, aggressive off the uphill inside edge and makes a very active crossover (arced turn) or to a Pivot Entry Turn (PET). Typically this is done to terminate any turn that is hanging on a bit and most always on steeper terrain. I haven't studied what percent of PET'S are started with an active uphill "release" but I'd bet it is the vast majority of PETS.

    Cross-Under

    This is where the CM moves diagonally across and through, not UP and Over (Most Crossovers) and the skis "Swim" under and out away from you (though done is GS on flats at speed this is very common in Slalom Turns). This move is usually accompanied with some level of "Absorption" of the pressures in the turn to keep ski snow contact.

    Active Absorption Turn (AAT)

    This is where you must actively suck your legs up to you to absord the forces of the turn, Cross Under and extend to not get launched. Though this is used in GS, this is much more commonly seen in Slalom on steeper sections and in the ruts.

    Down Unweighting/Cross-Under

    Quickly lower the CM to reduce pressure to allow the Cross-Under, I don't see this mover too often to be honest in WC events. I will watch closer. I don't imagine this is a move that is used in Nastar racing, so I was hesitant in mentioning it here. It was in Bob's link so I thought I'd address it.

    These brief and inadequate descriptions provided I'd like to address the beauty of GS as compared to the other disciplines. As GS turns ARE what we do in Nastar (whether modified or full blown) the art of the GS turn in the context of the Nastar race course should not be ignored.

    There is no one stance or position to execute a series of GS turns in any course. The racer that has the greatest repertoire of movements in their bag and can execute them where and when ever needed to negotiate the course and find the fastest line wins, period. Bode has a greater repertoire of movements executing GS turns on any WC GS course, this is why he can "See" where to find speed (he has the best Pivot, knows when to use Hip to de-angulate his skis, knows when press his feet forward to get his skis "hunting the fall line", etc.). He does this without too much thought, its instinctive at his level; it is instantaneous, it is outrageous talent. He is like Charlie "Bird" Parker, the great Jazz Sax player. Why was Bird so GREAT? Because he had more at his disposal, and endless talent where he could "hear" lines before he would play them in the complex matrix of a Jazz ensemble. It was based on more scales, more keys, more melodies, more technical facility all combining to make him fluent, flowing, without limits as he played extemporaneously and in stream of consciousness. Unreal! This is Bode in the GS course.

    What the heck is my point Mumster is asking? We start from a solid platform of the Modern Ski Racing Turn and build our repertoire upon that solid foundation. Then we add in influences we see in the Italians, the Austrians, the (yes, I had to say) the French and we become complete racers, not one dimensional AND it is the complete racer that wins races and more importantly - wins GS races, the most technical, subtle and beautiful of the four Alpine Disciplines.

    My prattle is over. And thanks Bob for the kind words. I plan on finishing the entire first Draft of Nastar, Racing to Win (I must submit it to Billy to get approval, that is just the intended title) while I convalesce from the scalpel. I have been teaching the MSRT Progression in full for about a month now and have tons of case studies. I will start to document this progression in stills and video before my surgery.

    Skiodor Doesgjdski

  9. #9
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    Whoops, JT, Sorry!

    Bear - My eyes jumped, Thank you for the kind words!!!

  10. #10
    Anonymous
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    Are you nuts?

    Skiodor Doesgjdski:
    I tried your active crossover (suicide dive) this past weekend. Hopeless (realize I still revert to a wedge when the going gets tough).

    I'll stick with trying the regular cross-over for awhile. :oops:

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