+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: Fastest line?

  1. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Where its too warm and flat :(
    Posts
    1,091
    Thanks Bob!

    I think it is a mix between a pivot, letting the skis run flat for a very short amount of time and then carving after that. (for certain turns/courses)
    www.Paskiandride.com/
    ^^Check it out^^

  2. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    81
    skidude, if pivoting is what you are describing in the drawing, the turn occurs earlier than in the picture. You pivot well above the gate and your resulting position is straight up the fall line from the gate. Then you cruise the fall line (this is the fastest possible trajectory in this segment, by the definition of "fall line"). As soon as you touch the gate, you start carving. Otherwise, you would fall late and lose the advantage of the pivoting. In the Torino GS they showed Benni Raich vs. Hermann Meier simultaneous clip. Hermann was late after his pivoting and he lost the whole ski length of advantage with this mistake. I have this clip recorded and I have watched it at least 20 times. I think it is a very important detail.

  3. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    660
    Originally posted by J
    skidude, if pivoting is what you are describing in the drawing, the turn occurs earlier than in the picture.  You pivot well above the gate and your resulting position is straight up the fall line from the gate.  Then you cruise the fall line (this is the fastest possible trajectory in this segment, by the definition of \"fall line\").  As soon as you touch the gate, you start carving.  Otherwise, you would fall late and lose the advantage of the pivoting.  In the Torino GS they showed Benni Raich vs. Hermann Meier simultaneous clip.  Hermann was late after his pivoting and he lost the whole ski length of advantage with this mistake.  I have this clip recorded and I have watched it at least 20 times.  I think it is a very important detail.
    Ron Lemaster has great photo montages (and you can buy them 'n hang 'em in your den for re-inforcement over the summer...). One shows a pivoted turn. The skis are pivoted to point to the inside pole, then the edge is set to engage carving. Yes, this occurs at the rise line, above the gate.


    Photo from www.ronlemaster.com
    Copyright © Ron Lemaster

    This can be done in slalom, too. Here's Ivica Kostelic in a slalom in 2002. Coming out of the flush it's rotary turn, carved turn, rotary turn, carved turn:

    Photo from www.ronlemaster.com
    Copyright © Ron Lemaster

    'Dude - is this the turn you were mentioning?

    PS - Good luck at the Corn Snow Classic this weekend! (My son will be there, too. Don't beat up on him too badly! :-) )
    Modern Ski Racing
    visit us at http://www.modernskiracing.com


  4. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Where its too warm and flat :(
    Posts
    1,091
    Haha at this point I'm not sure what I was getting at... It will come back...

    Are you going down with your son?
    www.Paskiandride.com/
    ^^Check it out^^

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Landenberg PA
    Posts
    226

    Re: My two cents.

    Originally posted by BobHarwood


    Ridge would be at a disadvantage if he tried this with all his USSA courses because they will have more offset and will require a rounder line.  

    But, big ruts aside, there's no reason why he can't try to to stay high and carve in a NASTAR course.  He can also work on getting early pressure through a strong cross-over movement to get a clean carve throughout the turn.  But, to do this he needs to cast finish time aside and focus on technique with video feedback.  Learning anything new will cause you to be a wee bit slower initially.
    Our ski team doesnt do video feedback, but I do :D Here is pic of Ridge on a Nastar course, he does take the high line.



    Sign in at www.paskiandride.com for info on Pennsylvania Ski Areas

  6. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    660
    Originally posted by skidude
    Haha at this point I'm not sure what I was getting at...  It will come back...

    Are you going down with your son?
    I'm not sure. I'd like to. I just spent a bunch o' money at Nationals, so I'd need to make a day trip of it. It's a four hour drive. I have a coach's party on Sat night. And, Eric's racing at the Sugar Slalom, too. So, I have to figure out how to fit it in. :?

    Great photo ops at your race this weekend. Here's one from the US Nationals. Julia and Ted are awesome.
    Modern Ski Racing
    visit us at http://www.modernskiracing.com


  7. #17

    Line thoughts

    I think there are two different concepts here, and it would be helpful to tease them apart. (Although it's also possible that everyone else knows exactly what they're talking about, and I'm the guy on a different page. Wouldn't be the first time that happened when it came to ski racing.)

    1. Skiing the lower, more direct "red" line. Instead of making 2/3ds of your turn above the gate, you can turn more at the gate. As long as you actually have a steep enough edge angle and sufficiently decambered (bent) ski to carve a clean turn and set up for the next gate and the one after, you have a faster line. Ron LeMaster discusses that at his site, www.RonLeMaster.com. (Go to Articles, then go to "Line Evolution: Survival of the Fastest". ) Bode Miller (because he takes risks and has better recovery skills than others) and Ted Liggety (because he skis with consistently higher edge angles) tend more toward this late, red line. (As did Daron Rahlves. When he won one of his first speed event races in Norway a few years ago, by going straight at the gates, he quoted one of the Austrian coaches as saying "I've never seen anyone ski like that." Then, Daron went on to explain, "it wasn't intended as a compliment.")

    In some cases (often in less technically challenging NASTAR courses, or in the flat less turny sections at the end of a club league GS race) this is the fastest line. It is also the riskiest line, as you risk a double turn, there is less margin for error, and the late line on gate 6 is what one often takes before skiing out on gate 7 or gate 8. More often though, it is simply an error: It is one of the most common errors of less experienced and less skilled racers to turn too late, at the gate instead of earlier, when the turns they carve at their skill level cannot possibly set themselves up for the following gate. In Olle Larsson's article on slalom, he notes that he sees many racers dive at the very first gate, selecting a line that from the very start that requires them to throw the skis sideways just to make the SECOND gate. (Been there, done that, finished in the wrong time zone as the result.)

    For those who want to play with it, use this line in the less turny flat sections of a Nastar course at the end, where the gates aren't very offset and there are no crankers ahead, just the finish line. There, it really is the fastest line, absolutely, and you won't get into trouble, because there isn't any trouble ahead.

    2. Second concept is pivot entry turns, where you redirect your unweighted skis to make a sharper turn than you can achieve simply by tipping them and continuously carving. The LeMaster montages Bob Harwood posted illustrate this well (and there's an even more impressive example in LeMaster's book Skier's Edge, where he shows one of the Norweigan male racers with a radical pivot entry changing direction something like 60 percent in 3 frames.) In steep, technically difficult courses, you have to do this. And in the Alpine Skills DVD, one of the U.S. women racers does it at the top of a course, hopping laterally onto her outside ski to bend the shovel more to carve a tighter first turn.

    Happy thoughts of first turns to everyone.

    Dean.
    Life is short. Ski fast.

  8. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    660

    Ayuh

    Yes, Dean, you're correct. My post at Modern Ski Racing is about selecting a line that fits your abilities. It talks about why there is no such thing as the one right line through a course, and how each racer can find the line that's right for them. (and, for fun, throws in a few items to chew on for a while..)

    The start of this thread (I think...) is discussing pivoted entry turns.

    Two distinct concepts, but all related to line.
    Modern Ski Racing
    visit us at http://www.modernskiracing.com


  9. #19
    I liked your article on line choice, Bob. A couple of additional thoughts about skiing the more direct line:

    1. Your diagram is right in noting that if you're too far from the gate, the line doesn't work. The direct line skied by Bode Miller and Ted Ligety requires you to ski very close to the gates. There isn't room to complete the turns if you are too far outside the gates (you can't get that far laterally by the next gate.)

    2. Your discussion of Bode Miller as an example seems right on, in that (A) he can take a more direct line than other racers because he can ski a tighter turn, and every racer has to customize line choice based on his/her own skills and strengths, and (B) the more direct line fits Bode Miller's psychology and skill set--he is a risk taker, and he has extraordinary balance, recovering more quickly from difficult positions. (Benni Raich, by contrast, skis a more conservative line. And has a less radical technique. And finishes more races, but often finishes top ten rather than number one.) It's always interesting to watch the World Cup speed events, because Bode Miller's line is often several feet inside everyone else's (but, of course, he also slammed his inside knee into the gate in the Olympic Super-G, skiing out, which is the flip side of the consistently tighter and more direct line--less margin for error.)

    There's always a risk/reward ratio with a more aggressive line choice, but the risk/reward ratio is very different in different parts of the course. If the gates are not very offset and there's no cranker right ahead, the more direct line offers high payoff with little risk. If there's a cranker right ahead after the two gates you're about to go through, followed by a flat section, the risk of going too low and then having to throw the skis sideways to stay on the course--just before the flats, where you cannot make up any speed--then the risks are much higher and the rewards much less.
    Life is short. Ski fast.

  10. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    660
    I didn't go into all aspects of line selection within segments of the course, so I could keep the discussion focused.

    You are correct. Gate placement, terrain, and speed all play a role in selecting a line through the course.

    Thanks for adding to the discussion.
    Modern Ski Racing
    visit us at http://www.modernskiracing.com


+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. How do you find the fastest line?
    By VAskier in forum Techniques and Tips
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-21-2009, 01:27 AM
  2. Fastest guy tonight
    By drpete3 in forum Results and Rankings
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-15-2008, 01:36 AM
  3. fastest driving route to the 'boat'?
    By tar67 in forum NASTAR National Championships
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 04-02-2006, 05:58 AM
  4. Atomic: Who’s Got the Fastest Shop?
    By JTBear in forum Results and Rankings
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-24-2005, 12:32 AM
  5. Fastest Pacesetter?
    By Anonymous in forum Results and Rankings
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-11-2003, 09:25 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts